At the ‘Spirituality in Prison’ seminar, ‘The Art of Decision-making,’ Camilla Carr spoke of her experiences of psychological torture and rape while held hostage in Chechnya for 14 months. When she talked of forgiveness, she had a very clear vision of what that meant for her. Several times she said it was about ‘letting go, and moving on.’ Can different people see forgiveness in different ways?

One man, who lost his daughter in the Enniskillen bombing, talked within hours of the tragedy of forgiving her killers. I wonder if it meant the same for him. And if it is, what exactly is it you are letting go of? It cannot be the memories can it?

To forgive is it enough to decide against revenge, to fight the feelings of anger and hate? Or must I make an effort to care, even love, those who have harmed me?

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0 #7 profile 2018-10-27 11:25
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0 #6 quest 2010-12-21 13:28
I find this quote to be very relevant to the on-going discussion.

Questioner: “Where does forgiveness come in all this?”

Krishnamurti: “When there is love there can be no forgiveness. Forgiveness comes only after you have accumulated rancour; forgiveness is resentment. Where there is no wound there is no need for healing. It is inattention that breeds resentment and hate, and you become aware of them and then forgive. Forgiveness encourages division. When you are conscious that you are forgiving, then you are sinning. When you are conscious that you are tolerant, then you are intolerant. When you are conscious that you are silent, then there is no silence. When you deliberately set about to love, then you are violent. As long as there is an observer who says, ‘I am’ or ‘I am not’, love cannot be.”
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0 #5 quest 2010-12-20 09:56
I came across "The Wisdom of Forgiveness&quo t; by His Holiness The Dalai Lama and Victor Chan, subtitled Intimate Conversations and Journeys. It gives remarkable insights into HH's thoughts and some rare insight into his own spiritual development.

On forgiveness for the invasion of Tibet and what has happened since: "...But revenge...this creates more unhappiness. So, think wider perspective: revenge no good so forgive. Forgiveness does not mean you just forget about the past. No, you remember the past. Should be aware that these past sufferings happened because of narrow-mindedne ss on both sides. So now, time passed. We feel wiser, more developed. I think that's the only way."

Recognising that everything is linked has helped me to acknowledge that if I don't forgive and love the other then I am harming myself in a way. HH says in the book, "The Theory of interdependence allows us to develop a wider perspective...W ith a wider mind there is less attachment to destructive emotions like anger and therefore more forgiveness. In today's world, every nation is heavily interdependent and interconnected. Under these circumstances, destroying your enemy - your neighbour - means destroying yourself in the long run. You need your neighbour. More prosperity in your neighbour, you'll get benefit. Now we are not talking about the complete removal of feelings like anger, attachment or pride, just reduction. Interdependence is important because it can actually help reduce the suffering caused by these destructive emotions."

Of course, it is not easy and requires a repeated reminder as I am only human, of course! I must admit it is easier in retirement as I don't have the pressures of work and can choose those with whom I interact more often. This means temptations are reduced. (Is this not one benefit of retreat?) I know the freedom I thought I felt when I stopped being a victim after an indecent assault and I began to take control of my life again. But it was only when I was able to feel forgiveness that I had real freedom from the event.
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0 #4 quest 2010-12-19 13:53
I am half way through Camilla Carr’s book (The Sky is Always There) and it has reinforced something that struck me very clearly at the seminar, it appeared to me that on many occasions, particularly when she was being violated, she was able to remain as a "detached observer" and to me this is what gave her so much strength as she knew they could not penetrate her spirit. I wonder how this understanding could be used not just with prisoners and prison staff but generally within society?

So much anger seems to stem from rejection that causes hurt and leads to anger and perhaps, if this could be shown more clearly through programmes, there would be more understanding of the trauma that so many people, particularly children, suffer on a daily basis.
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0 #3 quest 2010-12-16 10:10
I was interested to read Andy’s account and would like to answer the question posed at the end of his entry as my mother indeed was killed by a German.

My Mother was in Dachau as a young teenager, having been taken from the Ursuline Convent in Rumania; both my mother’s parents died at the hands of the Gestapo. I do believe that of the pain, hurt and anger held within my Mum, some was so often vented on me, as she had no control over her anger. I believe it also contributed to cancer and heart disease. However, in spite of my mothers amazing journey, she has been able to forgive the Gestapo, forgive the SS, and so many others.

As a child I did not know or understand my mothers journey; all I knew was the abuse. Today, I too have forgiven her unconditionally on many layers and know, like me, she did the best she could with the tools she had then. Today is a new day.

In response to Camilla's journey and ordeal, I admire and am humbled by this wonderful soul who is an example to the world. I was not privileged to be at the seminar this year and to experience, first hand, this courageous woman’s plight. What I do understand about forgiveness is that just to forgive without feeling and meaning is normal to start with. When practiced it gets easier. Forgiveness is not saying that what went on is ok ... it is forgiving the person not the action.

When I forgive I set myself free and set the perpetrator free in spirit. What a wonderful healing process to be part of, when the time feels right.
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0 #2 quest 2010-12-16 09:51
Seems to me to be a matter of coming to terms with whatever has been experienced - either to myself or to others. In turn 'coming to terms' could mean dealing with the emotional experience that has been generated, in a very individual way.

I have always thought people to be blessed who can 'forgive'; bringing them closer and quicker to peace and positive strength - less of a psychological victim. Conversely (and this is in no way a judgement on those who do become 'stuck'), how the alternative to 'forgiveness' would tend to promote an energy-sapping depression.

In the counselling work I am engaged in from time to time, especially where sexual or physical abuse has occurred during childhood, the word 'forgiveness' probably is not so much being sought by the client, but more the transfer from a place where they have (for some, a very long time) felt disempowered, helpless to taking back control of their emotions and lives, maybe not constantly but possibly more consistently. With reference to, the depression I mentioned above, I am always impressed by the sense of relief, 'feeling lighter' expressed by the client, if therapy has occurred.

I have found perspective to be a helpful tool, transference from a place they were (when whatever happened), to a place now, exploring what they want, how to achieve and maintain it. There will be emotional ambushes along the way, as I suggest there are for Camilla and that the work she does now is wrapped in her own rehabilitation and maintenance.

It's interesting though, is it not, that when such events are played out on film, play or whatever medium, that there is a part of us (there is in me anyway) who seeks revenge or come-uppance to the perpetrator... maybe a latent survival gene? and how this psychology was used on the conscientious objectors in the First World War - "what would you do if a German invaded this country and murdered your mother?"

Such musings
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0 #1 quest 2010-12-13 16:14
A response to the comments relating to the Enniskillen bombing and forgiveness! The perpetrator is never free and will not have peace until he/she has accepted what has happened and forgiven themselves or asked for forgiveness. This may never happen for some and therefore they live in turmoil within their soul.

To be angry, to blame, to judge is to waste so much of our precious energy. The person whose child had been killed is indeed an example to us all. However, part of grieving and healing is to express the feelings - all of them and SOMETIMES, if we go straight into forgiveness without expressing the hurt, sadness etc, we deny ourselves from the healing process.

There is no right or wrong way; it’s always as it’s meant to be. I have had many clients who come with many anger/fear issues and who would clearly like to express but often say to me they must have dealt with issues a long time ago. We may talk about what might have happened as a child if they got angry.... Sometimes it is so scary to express feelings for fear of the repercussions. Discussion occurs. Then the release begins, expression starts and so the healing process continues. Often people will say, “I don’t know where all that has come from.”

One needs to feel really safe to express freely.
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